what is your opinion of satyam jain UNDERSTAND UPSC ?

But sir, dont you think when coachings claim result they should declare what %tage of their students are getting selected? if 100,000 students are studying ( example ) then how many will get selected?

Also sir, satyam jain has compared you to sahara chief subroto roy who took millions from poor people and went down with their hard earned savings..

But why doesn’t Forum clarify the truth when she is actual student and not paid by forumias. so many people think she is paid by forum

Bhai achi baat hai nahi kara 'clarify', let the non-serious crowd think they're paid, humara hi competition kam ho rha hai ;)

@Neyawn sir see this

wht is ur opinion on ths? isnt it hurtng forumias business?

In my opinion, Satyam Jain is just building his backup plan (Nothing wrong in it) as his attempts will be exhausted soon. He will soon launch paid courses if he doesn't end up in the service. None of his initiative meet logical conclusion. And why would they? Money ensures accountability : both legal and moral. And that is totally missing from all his initiatives

He ditches a lot of initiatives mid way. However I reiterate that Mains test series checking is structurally flawed (Forum, Vision or any other) and I don't think there is a solution to it given the limitations of supervising each and every evaluator.

The only solution to this IMHO is COSTLIER evaluations ( preferably face to face) where really good mentors check your copies 

Why is mains answer checking structurally flawed according to you?

@TwoFace Hi Bhai/Behen/Sir/Mam,
Although I usually remain a silent observer on these blogs, I happened to follow this one.

I'd like to offer a suggestion (though perhaps I'm not in a position to give one, but I'll try anyway). It's better not to waste your time on such videos and commentary. Instead, focus on your studies and try to break free from this cycle.

Additionally, I'd like to make another humble request. Deep down, you might also recognize that posting such questions doesn't contribute positively to anyone's learning. On the contrary, it could negatively influence some aspirants who have never engaged in or been aware of such discussions.
Please, let's avoid creating an amensalistic relationship with this platform. :)

The platform emphasizes protocooperation and mutualism, let's try to maintain that. 

Hello Sir

Structurally flawed because Firstly it doesn't pay that well

Anyone who is intelligent & hardworking enough to know the nuances of this exam will invariably move upto a teaching role, which pays really well. Such a person will not have enough time to check the copies of even deserving student and track their progress (The best example is EdSarrthi, where Mr Varun Jain no longer offers the Google meet mentorship that made the brand what it was) 

Even if such a person decides to check the copies of deserving candidates. It is very difficult to sort out the deserving from the non deserving as the non deserving candidates may turn into deserving and vice versa 

Also there are numerous students who are diligent and hardworking but have very poor writing skills. How do you put them in the category of non deserving? 

Hence in my opinion, we need a good team of evaluators who are known to be diligent and who take their role very seriously and not just another Rs 800. Their evaluation must build/erode their brand just like teaching. But then why would a reputed institute allow this brand building? 

Also, all of this becomes difficult given the volume of such copies as such wonderful mentors are few. Hence, the only solution is costlier evaluations by worthy mentors to reduce the volume and incentivise these mentors. 

Also I am taking the liberty of pointing out to the issues in current evaluations 

1. Very difficult to monitor their checking due to the volume and the subjectivity 

2. Usually evaluators take the safe approach : Award them average marks. Why? (THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN MY OPINION) 

If they give high marks, they will have to face higher scrutiny and higher accountability given that such copies may make into topper copies. 

Also if they give low marks, they will again have to face higher scrutiny of the student. Low marks means more suggestions especially in terms of the language, the structure AND not the content. They'll have to guide the students to improve. 

Hence the best way to make 800 Rupees is give them all average marks and avoid any scrutiny. Also they are more likely to give remarks on content part as that can be readily copied from model answers. This is because remarks on heads like Structure, language and presentation require precise and personalised remarks, which demands greater effort. (This is how MOST evaluators think) 

I have evaluated numerous copies and was never hesitant to tell a candidate that their English is pathetic and that they lack the ability to form sentences. Such remarks are rare and we need to tell the candidates: THE TRUTH. It can only come from someone who genuinely cares about the candidate and wants him to excel and improve. 

Yet, I was not sufficiently rewarded given the efforts I had put in because the market has no mechanism to grade or sort really good evaluators from the bad ones. 

I could help candidates/friends only when I started face to face evaluation on Google meet as then I could charge them more and tell them exactly what was wrong with them.

But I don't think the institutes allow that kind of evaluations as the brand obviously has to be the face and not the individual.

Also then, there is a risk of candidates being offered cheaper evaluations by such mentors on a private space (Just like the AC service guy from the company offers the service at a cheaper rate) 

If an evaluator take 1000 rupees for a single copy along with a Google meet. Let us assume he takes 3 calls a day. Such a person can easily make 90,000/month. But then the volume will increase with the fame and this individual will delegate the work to people who can do the same at a cheaper rate. Again, issues of quality and competence will arise. 

We all know that in thecase of Mains preparation, it is the Evaluator and not teacher on whom everything depends. He has the potential to transform a person into an IAS with his pen if he points out the exact issues (given that he is competent which most evaluators are not: No training at all). 

Despite this, Evaluations are the weakest link of the UPSC coaching industry primarily because it does not pay well. It is not a digital asset like Recorded lecture/Model ans/CA booklet/Paper on which the total cost remains the same, irrespective of the number of students. Here the cost shall increase ( Rs 800 or so for every copy) with  each copy submitted and thus it cannot be scaled exponentially. 

I will try to bring some perspective into the ongoing discussion, and will try to address smce concerns.

"Hello Sir

Structurally flawed because Firstly it doesn't pay that well

Anyone who is intelligent & hardworking enough to know the nuances of this exam will invariably move upto a teaching role, which pays really well. Such a person will not have enough time to check the copies of even deserving student and track their progress. Even if such a person decides to check the copies of deserving candidates. It is very difficult to sort out the deserving from the non deserving as the non deserving candidates may turn into deserving and vice versa 

Also there are numerous students who are diligent and hardworking but have very poor writing skills. How do you put them in the category of non deserving? 

Hence in my opinion, we need a good team of evaluators who are known to be diligent and who take their role very seriously and not just another Rs 800."

How well a job pays is a very subjective thing. How much do you think is paid by the Commission to evaluators of actual Mains? And if that remuneration is not as good, what do you think will be the motivation of professors evaluating upsc copies at a much less incentives? Then that means, upsc actual evaluation is also flawed, since unless they are paid an X amount they wont do their job properly.

"Hence in my opinion, we need a good team of evaluators who are known to be diligent and who take their role very seriously and not just another Rs 800. Their evaluation must build/erode their brand just like teaching. But then why would a reputed institute allow this brand building? 

Also, all of this becomes difficult given the volume of such copies as such wonderful mentors are few. Hence, the only solution is costlier evaluations by worthy mentors to reduce the volume and incentivise these mentors. "

Look, the word 'good evaluator' is a very wide term. Just like the word aspirant. There are people who have quit their jobs and are studying day and night for the exam, writing prelims and mains is an aspirant. And for every such aspirant there are 500 or so people who call themselves aspirants - who are just job seekers - and they need *any* govt job, not just IAS. ( There is a difference between wanting ANY govt job vs ending up with ANY govt job- the latter has at least prepared intensively for Civils ) . Which is why even an institute that is training for constable, sub - inspector, clerks etc also has the name "IAS" coaching in its name.

It has been made out that evaluators are mentally dumb, money - hungry people . No they are not only that. I can tell about Forum that at least there are at least 100 core evaluators who have been with Forum since several years, they have been students - done MGP very well and taken at least 2 attempts to clear the exam ( the experience matters ) - they are people who have extra time, and are serving, and they are very passionate about upsc even after 5-7 years into their jobs. After essay paper they will call and say - Sir this time paper was very innovative .... difficult. There are people where both the spouses have been with us for several years - both have gotten what they wanted and help with evaluation in their spare time. I have never heard from these people - they do not do evaluation full time, they do it in free time and weekends - and they never discuss remuneration stuff. They are settled and they do a good job. And they comprise nearly 30-35% of the evaluators.

When a student is not happy with his evaluation, his / her copy is sent to a senior evaluator and he/ she examines it. In essay we have evaluators who have cleared both IAS and IFS and want to do some work in free time. 

But that is not even important. What is important that evaluation should make sense to the student. And many a times, it may not make sense. That is because it is very difficult to communicate all that you want to say in limited space - even if you wanted to!

Which is why we have mentorship sessions. Where someone can discuss their copy with a mentor, who can tell them areas to improve upon, if any.

I had a bright student last year - I think her name was some NaXXXX. Now when she went through that video which@TwoFace  has posted, she lost all trust and comfidence. And she became very acidic and acerbic towards the evaluator. The evaluator was a well accomplished person, having cleared this exam twice. ( We have an elaborate feedback system )

She was doing well, but deep down I know that she got caught in the noise, and now her two years are wasted. And she will probably come back to us after 2 years.

Mentorship provides a second level of review to students who may not fully understand the evaluation. 

And people have done that.

I was meeting this candidate who was from Jaipur and was with Forum. So I asked her Forum doesnt have a center in jaipur, why didnt you do VSN ? She had secured Rank 120 and I think that year is is the highest rank from her category. You can watch me Interview her below

She said, Sir, I had heard good things about Forum and I got good mentor support from forum in online mode.. In my first attempt, I didnt speak to any mentor, but in second attempt, I followed my mentor closely

This is her mentorship record and her copies record

( Next someone will make video on mentors. For the record, her mentor was one Mr A, who is a senior officer now, serving a Pvt Secretary to Finance Min of the coutry .

1. Very difficult to monitor their checking due to the volume and the subjectivity 

2. Usually evaluators take the safe approach : Award them average marks. Why? (THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN MY OPINION) 

If they give high marks, they will have to face higher scrutiny and higher accountability given that such copies may make into topper copies. 

Also if they give low marks, they will again have to face higher scrutiny of the student. Low marks means more suggestions especially in terms of the language, the structure AND not the content. They'll have to guide the students to improve. "

The purpose of any evaluation is to be as objective as possible. This means that no matter who the evaluator is, what is his mood, you should be getting that kind of marks.

At Forum, the marking scheme is on the tighter side, and we generally say that you should get 20 marks more than what you are getting in Forum.

Evaluators do not award average marks. We have evaluation guidelines where there is a cap on the highest marks that may be given - and that is 60%

You see in humanities, you have accept that all answers are correct answers, but some answers are more correct than the others - unless close ended questions are asked.

For example,

Briefly mention the alignment of major mountain ranges of the world and explain their impact on local weather conditions, with examples. (2021 )

This is a close ended question and you either know or you do not know the answer. if you know nothing, you cannot write the answer. You will be awarded zero if if you dont know the answer and make it up ( You may get 1 marks for just making a diagram - and that will depend on evaluator from what I have seen )

So whether it is upsc or wheather it is any private coaching evaluation, you wont get marks unless you write the specific answer.

But a question like - "Indian diaspora has scaled new heights in the West. Describe its economic and political benefits for India."is more open ended. So you can make up an answer and write on the basis of what you know. You will definitely see an averaging tendency in such questions. 

A brilliant answer may fetch as high as 60% and a poor answer, but having written things substantially may fetch a 20-25%.

Humanities is not like. " Write down the 3 laws of Newton." Where you get a 10/10 if you write it and get 0 if you do not.

And in humanities, for the above question also someone who writes adding dimensions like

- Intro - who was  newton

- three laws 

- other theories by newton

- criticism by heisenberg and theory of relativity  

he will end up scoring way better. When I was studying at Tata Institute of Social Sciences , we would often meet Profs who would award us 55% marks on a great assignment, and 35% marks in a poorly written one. And it was a premier institute. ( Those days results from Soth were better than North - check out 2009-2011 era.)

It is also the case that in UPSC the prof may award 70-80-90% marks in some questions. But then it is completly dicretion of the Prof - which cannot be done in a simulated test series - and serves no purpose!

** Why average marks may be given? Reasoning 2 ***

Imagine that I am very happy with a certain candidate in GS - IV. Let us assume a student has written exactly what I wanted, and I taught in the class. And if the student has answered all questions  well - which happens, and I award her 70-90% marks in each question, the candidate ends up getting 160-170 in the paper!

Now this may happen in UPSC also!

But UPSC has two tools

1) It may have strict marking or lenient marking for some subjects in some years

2) It will do scaling.

So those people who make videos saying that UPSC gives such marks, you see the scores given by UPSC itself - which does not have a pattern!

IN GS 3 for the past 3 years not many have crossed 99 while in GS 4 in past 3 years people have gotten 147 also! 

And just take the results from CSE 2016- 2018-2019. Noone was getting marks in Ethics, and GS 3 everyone got 110+

So we would rather not have a situation where someone is having 160 score in forum mock test and is getting 88 in actual civils! It is plain stupid!

"We all know that in thecase of Mains preparation, it is the Evaluator and not teacher on whom everything depends. He has the potential to transform a person into an IAS with his pen if he points out the exact issues"

You overestimate answer writing practice and guidance and underestimate content. You see with the explosion in blogging and thanks to a forum also - a lot of things which were known only to interview appearing students - that if you write so , so and so , you get an Interview call .

If you see candidates these days - there are only 1000 seats, and you have at least 2000-3000 students who write really well. 

5 Years back, if you just completed the paper, you would get a call and probably make it to the list. But that itself was a task. 

But things changed a lot since 2018-2019 itself. Today, majority of the people complete the paper - the fight for top ranks is not there - it has become a lot content game. I am saying this because forum since the beginning attracted a very good crowd ( it was made for interview discussion ) . So when we get case like this

... we know that people like him have written and cleared the exam 3-4 times. They know how to do answer writing. Then as mentors how do we help him get IAS? There is not much you can tell him in answer writing.

And all these people are those who have read hindu for 5 years and made notes. On that content and with those writing skills every year you can get a 100-200 rank, but not a top rank. For top rank , you will need content.

( This kid got rank 7 after he came to forum , and yes we worked on content )

And since you have been asking questions - what about this candidate - so Mr Kartik Brahmabhatt as shown in picture above is the typical case of a person coming to Delhi, but sitting in his room and doing what he could have done in his room. With MGP at least he may have written a few hundred answers , and read some very good answers. And even in the absence of evaluation or mentorship, if someone write those many answers and read good content, he would become something.

And its sad because he could not cut the noise on the internet. I will probably meet him after 2 years.

and as far as paid misguidance videos are there, this picture is worth a thousand words.

At least one evaluator left a remark to the then future rank 1 that "you have very less scope of improvement. try to maintain consistency across papers."

Hello Sir, i disagree with you on some points: 

If you look at GPSC (Gujarat) & BPSC (Bihar) copies which are out in open, you’ll realise this is not the case. People have been awarded a Single mark for a 250 words answer where they just spilled some content and have been awarded 80% marks too for a brilliant answer.

IMHO, Here in UPSC coaching an out of context answer written in 250 words receives far more than what it receives in the real exam. 

Also, a brilliant answer in MGP or any other test receives far less than what it deserves because the evaluators are usually not that brilliant and lack the wisdom to appreciate excellent content. On the other hand, a professor in UPSC is far more appreciative of really good content that let’s say Dipin Sir gives in the CA classes. Also, evaluators are a weak link because they don’t carry the wisdom that a UPSC professor has. 

Also, I don’t intend to counter any points wrt MGP.  I strongly stick by the fact that evaluations need considerable improvements. Many institutes have already started providing face to face evaluations which is a more transparent way and ensures that the evaluator doesn’t just put a tick and some general comments. Most of us, the students and I can speak for Ishita (Rank 1) and Rahul (Rank 10) too, are usually awarded general comments that are of little help. 

However, I cede to the point that students fail to consult mentors after the evaluation. But I also know that not everywhere you get the same mentors (Idk what is the status right now at MGP). Some mentors are not available especially during the 3 months b/w prelims and mains. It becomes really difficult to talk to a different mentor who has not been tracking your progress right from Day 1. 

Again, my comments are not directed at MGP per se. I am talking about general status of evaluations and I am highly confident that these points of General comments, random ticking, evasive checking will resonate with most students reading this. 

My critical view of evaluation is only meant as a feedback to what students feel on ground. Also, I must appreciate that at least the head of a leading institution is willing to hear and understand them with an open mind. I shall rest my case with this:P 

Regards:)

No disrespect sir, but if u knw he will cm to u after 2 years… why did u MK dat video.. don’t burn test series.. do it instead?